Author

Subject: Arguing with a Priest

Shalie21

05:47 10/12/2001 

There was a ghost man with black hair, a beard, and a fat butt.

He lived in a house. I went back in time and went to the house with three guys and a girl. We were on a mission to, I guess, bring the ghost man back to the physical realm (make him physical again.)

In order to do this, I had to kiss a blonde man. But if I ended up kissing or touching the ghost man, then I would become like a ghost also.

We ended up back further in time: the 1700's or 1800's, in the bodies of 5 children who bore our names, but with different last names.

We were sitting at a table doing art projects. One of the boys with me was a good artist, and he painted the American flag that filled the whole page and he kept painting large pictures of the American flag. He painted maybe 50 of them or more.

The mother of the children became interested in what he was doing. And she looked at the back of the picture where he had signed it with all of our names. She read off the names that he had put on the painting and she read my brother's name, and I thought, "Gee, does he have the same name as my brother?" But upon my looking at the signatures I saw that she had just read his first name and then my last name.

The mother was concerned because he signed the picture with our original last names and not her last name. And also he had dated it the year 1999 and 2001 and she, of course, did not understand.

Then we all went to church. When we were there the girl who was with me pulled out a Torah from her bag and set it by the Christmas tree we were sitting by.

At first I didn't know if she should do that, but then I thought, Well Christianity is based on Judaism so it should be ok.

But the priest came by dressed in friar robes like Catholic priests still wear and he said something derogatory against the Jewish people. I argued with him saying that without the Jewish religion, half of the bible would be missing and that even the rest would not be there because it was based on the Jewish religion. Then the priest went on up to the altar.

I told the girl I was with that I’d better settle down because I was in an argumentative mood.

Dream edited for easier reading - JT, 2005

Read the original thread or Jane Teresa's view.

Tom

07:40 17/12/2001 

Wow, that is complicated. Give a little background into what has been happening in you r life around the time of this dream. It seems to me that the American flags are in the news alot lately. people have them on their cars etc. Arguing with the priest could be your questioning the insanity of people killing in the name of God. You may be having the"can we all just get along" thoughts concernign Sept. 11th. The ghost with the black beard seems too close to Usama Bin Ladan to be ignored. He is like a ghost in the way he slips from cave to cave. Is your brother in the service? maybe gong back in time and becomming children is a way of escaping the horrors of these terrorist attacks. essentially going back in time and preventing the events. Maybe you want to raise a little hell about it but feel that it is not appropraite to be in an argumentative mood. I don't know. But the symbolism seems to mirror the the events around the terrorist stuff. What do you think?

guest

07:43 17/12/2001 

Oh and the bit about the ghost having a big butt is almost laughable. After all Usama is an unmistakable A**H***. The biggest butt head in the world right now.

Shalie21

11:37 20/12/2001 

Well, I think that part of this dream represents my argumentativeness towards many religious theories. For awhile now, I have been arguing on the muslim message board because I don't agree with a lot of what they say there. And it has caused a lot of emotional turmoil for me for two reasons. One, because I don't agree with some of the negative aspects of the religion that seem to be the cause of some of the violence seen in terrorists who claim to be muslim. I don't understand these negative aspects and a lot of the times they make me angry because I tend to get angry when I see things that seem to be racist, or cause one to believe that another person or group of people are less than they are, or cause some sort of violence against a person or group of people. I discovered these negative aspects of the muslim religion by reading passages in the Quran and Hadiths.

The second reason that my arguing with the Muslims on the muslim message boards caused emotional turmoil was because I felt guilty for doing so. I was arguing with them and trying to convince them of my theory about God. But at the same time I thought, "Who am I to try to convince them that my way is better, when I don't even know where I'm going with it?" I know I believe in God, and that I believe in the concept of "Love one another", and "do unto others as you would have done unto you". And I tend to lean towards the Eastern thought, such as Buddhist teachings, etc. However, I have some difficult questions for Buddhism and Christianity as well.

This all goes with my search for God. But I am learning some things on my spiritual journey that say that I should not be so argumentative with the other faiths. And that I should not be so negative towards the muslim religion. One thing, I'm sure that there are some very spiritual and Godly elements in the muslim religion. I met a very nice and seemingly peaceful muslim guy once so I know that probably a lot of muslims are also very nice and peaceful. And so there has to be at least some positive, and spiritual aspects to Islam. Furthermore, by being negative about muslims, do I then become what I hate: One who advocates that another group of people are less than they are? And just because I might disagree with what the Quran says about certain things, does that automatically make it wrong and me right?

Now, as far as the fat ghost man in the dream, I never really equated him with Osama Bin-Laden. I guess that is because I have some negative emotions towards Bin-Laden at this point, and in the dream there was not much negative emotion towards the fat ghost man except that if I touched him, I would turn into a ghost. But your theory about equating him with Osama Bin-laden is interesting. And going by that theory, my reaction to the ghost man gets even more interesting. In the dream I wanted to help the ghost man by bringing him back to the physical realm. Somehow by bringing him back to the physical realm, it would make it so that he could experience life again. So perhaps maybe it would be saying that Osama Bin-Laden has lost touch with reality or with the beauty of life. And to bring that back to why I was dreaming such a thing, maybe likewise, I am having the same problem. hmmm interesting.

Please, if you will, continue to comment on this dream. If I can discuss this dream perhaps it will become more clear to me.

Tom

14:23 20/12/2001 

yes, Bin Laden probably subconsciously is being equated with your problematic associtation with Islam. Maybe you think that if you could only touch him you could make him see that you are not evil. You do not represent evil. I was impressed by your assertion that you become what you hate. That one floored me. I had to step back and say hurray for serrindipity! That is the answer to many ills that have been dogging me. Your Karma jsut ran over my dogma dude. SCREEEEEECH! BOOOOM! Man, i really dig that shmit. I too, have started developing a strong distaste toward muslims. I find the whole thing repugnate. Teh whole Burka thing and the jumping up and down hootin and hollering kinda strikes of Penis Envy or something. I feel they are extremely overcome with jealousy. We are free. Christianity is free. Our choices are free. Free Free Free. Everything we do is expensive but we are free to pursue how we spend it. Our time, money, brain capacity all free. Jesus released us from bondage. Again Freedom. They seem hell bent on bondage. Women in Burka's, men in nasty assed beards, kids in hate filled school rocking back and forth like children I witnessed being abused in Romania. Can't even sing or fly a kite for chrissake. What the hell is that all about. Women can't bathe?!! Funky wunky. Women cant see a gyno?!! I mean Sheez! The terrorist thought they would assend directly to heaven if they killed office workers in the Towers? That they have a harem of virgins to bang all day in heaven. Now, I might be missing the boat here somehow, but it seems to me if those puny little men had just gotten laid, they's be saying, 'Hey, Bin Laden, You go ram a jet up something, I'm staying home with Kelly here and listening to that new Britany Spears CD. HMMM, just a thought

Shalie21

06:20 21/12/2001 

Well, I know that the muslim religion is not our culture. And to me it seems very small and limiting (as many religions do to me). But I also know that a lot of people need that. In my sojourn on the muslim message boards, I met two different women, on two different muslim message boards, who used to be Christian, but somehow Islam answered all their questions about life and religion better than Christianity did and so they became muslim.

Some of what you mentioned there, Tom, such as women can't bathe, are probably just because of culture, because it really doesn't say in the Quran that women can't bathe. Neither does it say that women have to be covered from head to toe, however it DOES say that women do have to cover themselves and wear a veil. And neither does it say in the Quran that women can't see a doctor. And the Quran advocates that suicide is a sin. So some of that is not because of Islam or Muhammad, but by the thoughts and feelings of the Taliban and other rulers, taking things a few steps too far.

However, one has to wonder why the Taliban, and other radical Islamic groups, who are well versed in Islam and the Quran, would resort to such radicalness, violence, and distorted belief systems about women.

Perhaps the same reason that Christians back in the 1200-1500's thought it wise to resort to tactics of radicalness,violence, and torture using the inquisition and the Crusades.

The thing I kept telling the muslims is that, Christians seem to have learned from their mistakes. And also that Christians who do resort to such violent acts cannot quote anything from Jesus in the New Testement to support such a thing, where as Muslims can quote from the Quran, verses which support the violent acts that they are doing. There are limitations on how and when they can do the violent acts though, but one can distort the truth of what is happening in such a way as to get around these limitations, that's what Usameh Bin-Laden has done for many of the muslim people who support him. However, there is a wide range of muslims who do not support Usameh Bin-Laden, many of them living in the United States themselves.

The United States is no angel or saint, but we certainly don't warrant people to hate us enough to murder us and themselves in the process.

So we should see that Islam does not equal terrorism, and terrorism does not equal Islam. The actual word Islam means submission (to the will of God). And the muslims on the message boards that I have been on keep trying to tell me that Islam is a religion of peace.

I see that there are probably many peaceful muslims who would go all out for you if they could. There are also many prejudiced muslims who follow the distorted truth laid out to them by Bin-Laden and others. You can say that about any religion however, though you usually don't hear about violent acts being done by Buddhists or Hare Krisnas.

So, because of the negative aspects of the muslim religion, the verses in the Quran and the Hadiths that condone violent actions even with limitations, and the negative verses about women, I cannot be a muslim myself. But I guess that some people seem to need Islam in their quest for spirituality and God.

Star

08:22 21/12/2001 

Don't doubt what I need to say here will cause some re-action but I need to say it.

In relation to your comment Shalie - The United States is no angel or saint, but we certainly don't warrant people to hate us enough to murder us and themselves in the process.

Firstly I don't condone or believe for one second that killing others is the way in which to solve issues. Yet history is full of it. Leaders don't agree with other Leaders so what the heck we'll get armies of troops to invade other's space, kill and wound each other whilst the leaders sit safely in their ivory towers or desert caves, whatever.

What a senseless waste of life and such an unevolved way of being.

I experienced many visions after this particular incident, all horrific enough to literally make me vomit, which occurred over a period of a few days.

I was seeing and re-living down through the ages - all the bloody battles that had occurred due to men hating others enough to want them dead simply due to a need for power and for controlling the lands they inhabited, fear and ignorance, lack of respect and acceptance that each is different, each has their own beliefs and each has every right to be here and believe whatever it is they want to believe - who knows we may even learn something from listening to another who does not have the same beliefs as us.

I witnessed many massacres that had occurred as "innocent indigenous" people went about their daily lives, both Native American and Aboriginal. I fully felt the fear and horror those people had experienced as they were set upon totally defenceless by canons, guns, etc.

And I clearly saw as I went on this "guided tour" if you like, that the situation which had occurred in the US was totally karmic.

What goes round, comes round.

In the news that followed the immediate re-action - rather than a reasoned response and desire to look at WHY this had happened - was we must and will strike back and whilst a brilliant opportunity existed to break the cycle by looking at cause rather than seeing one symptom, the cycle sadly still continues.

War to my way of thinking is nothing more than yet another act of terrorism and those who support it and perpetrate it, supposedly in "God's name" are no better than those who commit terrorism.

This whole episode was clearly visible when I had the gut feeling to check out Revealations - all was there.

As I experienced all these visions I also clearly saw that it is NEVER women who start Wars - it is only men. Joan of Arc perhaps is the only exception which came to mind and if there are others then I do not have knowledge of them as yet, but she too ultimately had to face her own arrogance and then later was sentenced to death by various church leaders who feared her.

Perhaps the fact that men perpetrate such attrocities is simply due to the fact that whilst men help to create life by way of sperm, they do not experience the actual process of that life growing inside of them, or of birthing that life, of suckling that life and nurturing it. For I don't believe for one second that if men did fully experience the ultimate act of creation, of bringing life into the world, they could possibly ever do any of the things they do to each other, to women and to children.

Humanity operates mainly from a space of fear and externalism - constantly seeking outside ourselves for someone to blame, for someone or something (material possessions) to experience pleasure, joy, whatever with, for something to believe in to help us make sense of what occurs in our lives and in the world i.e relgions.

We cannot change anyone by way of force, argument, war, terrorism etc. all we can ever do is look within ourselves and work on us. For as we change so do "they".

Tom

08:24 23/12/2001 

hello Star: Up to you radical self again I see. LOL. That is cool. First and foremost, I agree with the anaology that men don't create life. And maybe in our frustration we become the butcher (no pun) the baker and the candle-stick maker. We create bridges as well as bombs. As for women always being the benevolent peace mongers, I take umbrage. Women do not possess the power to perpetrate such atrocities but if they did, I assure you they would. Whole societies would be wiped out in an emotional displays way before any thought was given and regret would soon follow. Because if it were possible, women would assume powere and not all of them would be the wise purvetors of peace and tranquility such as yourself. Easy to make such blanket statements w/o any evidence. HAve you ever heard,"You can't prove a negative?" You did give us Joan of Arc but lets delve deeper. how about the Smith woman who killed her kids by sinking the car into that lake and blaming it on the "BLACKMAN". Or how about the recent one who drowned her kids in the tub because she was feeling a little bleau? And the snobby on in Texas who stabbed her three kids in there sleep? She lied and blamed it on an intruder. Susan Smith did it because she was scorned by a man who didn't want her because she had kids by another man. She didn't want the father to have them out of spite. The answer, murder the children and then I will get sympathy from the new Beau while denying the father the pleasure of raising his beutiful little boys. He cried like a baby at the funeral.. now, what if she was Prime Minister or President with a finger on the nuclear button? What about that female serial killer who was a hooker that killed her John's and claimed they were trying to'rape' her? She was a lesbian who just hated men plain and simple. She's even admitted it was all bullshit in prison. Also, in many primitive cultures that have not been exposed to patriarchal models, have women as leaders. Miousx & zutu Quatta of Africa are savagely violent. The famed Amazon warriors of South America were savages. Seveveral Queens in Englan during the days of old were barbaric and cruel. You see, we men get a bad rap from popular media and from feminist diatribe. Especially white men. I am assuming we are all from the USA here in this forumn. White men are wife beaters are child molestors. If not that then we are stupid, fat and unintelligent. We are not sexy or charming or funny. See the commercial, Tray Winga and he laughs at the guy. We are cumbersome. Obsolete. But we are still here. We want to create and make things better. We acknoledge that some of us were mean 50, 100, 150 years ago. It is a new world now. We have been told to sit down and shut up. My two cents. As for the dream. The Christian Crusades were a zillion years ago. Usama Bin Laden pulled this crap in what seems like last week. Muslim students here in Amercia are fund raising for terrorist groups abroad. Hey, I think GW Bush is a friggin idiot but we have got to draw a politically incorrect line in the sand and say "Folks, enough is enough!" Wow. that felt good.

Star

08:54 23/12/2001 

Am pleased that felt good for you Tom. :) Gave me a bit of a giggle too, thanks.

We're not all from the USA here, this is an OZ based site. Ha, so you see me as a radical hey, how very interesting.

How sad it is that if what you say is the general consensus for men in your country that they feel this way about themselves.

I don't know any of the cases you refer to concerning women killing their children and how tragic it is that they did not seek some form of assistance or help in dealing with their emotions before it led them to perform such horrific acts.

My point was that history (his story) is full of violence, revenge, greed, power, control, hatred and anger and exactly where has that gotten us and what's it all been for anyway??? None of it makes any sense to me whatsoever.

I guess the sooner all those who do want to kill each other for whatever ridiculous reasons get it over and done with the better it will be for all us "wise purveyors of peace and tranquility".

May we all soon enter the time where there really is equal respect and acceptance for ALL.

Inner Peace - World Peace.

Tom

04:56 24/12/2001 

HEAR hear! I DO CONCUR!! I believe we, as a species, are approaching a harmonic convergence if you will. We will soon have the opportunity to change things in a new direction and get better or, unfortunately we may choose to simply keep on with business as usual. If we choose to embrace the Paridigm Shift and relish the challenges before us, I am certain we can succeed. Things like Global Warming, over fishing the oceans, pollution, addiction to fossil fuels, new energy forms, over population, religious fanatics, terrorism, war, famine, the butcher the baker the candlestick maker. I am a die hard pessimist though. I see GW Bush as twenty steps backwards. i fear that we will fail to meet the challenge before us when I am certain we can find solutions to these messes. It will mean that some of the old dynasty will not be super mega filthy rich but just mearely super rich. WE must try to convince them that they can adjust too. Big Challenge. In a moment of clarity, I Wish All A Merry Christmas and too all a Good Night!

Shalie21

06:09 24/12/2001 

Hi Star and Tom,

Star, it's interesting that Australia is called the land of Oz. Why is that? Kansas is also called the land of Oz because, of course the movie the Wizard of Oz was set there. :-)

Anyway, I would like to comment on both of you and Tom's comments about men and women and violence. Both men and women do have the capability to be violent. I have come to the belief that we all have light and dark, positive and negative, good and evil, inside of us, whether we are men or women, muslim, Chrisitan, Jewish, or otherwise. And what we need to do is to try to bring out the light that is in ourselves and in others. And we should all come together as human beings. :-)

Shalie21

06:25 24/12/2001 

I just had to add this.

People seem to want to separate men and women and say that they are completely and totally different than each other and never the 'tween shall meet. But in my experience that is just not true.

The commonality between men and women is that they are human beings. And when they come together they create more human beings, whether those human beings are men or women. It's not like only men can produce men and only women can produce women. Both sexes have both sexes in them. The man carries the DNA for both women and men, and the woman carries the male or female child in her body for 9 months.

I think that each man and each woman delve into the same source to get their personalities and their beingness, but they seem to delve into different aspects of the same source, however each can have the same qualities as the other because they are getting them from the same source.

We are all human beings, that's what we are plain and simple. And both men and women usually react in the same manner; when threatened, we defend ourselves; when in love we devote ourselves; when looking for peace, we look to love and helping others; etc.

Star

07:49 24/12/2001 

Hi Shalie - hmmm ... re Oz don't know exactly - Aus - Oz - just easier I guess than saying Australia all the time.

It is also for me the magical land of the Dreamtime/Dreaming and I guess the Wizard of OZ was about finding truth in the Dreaming which is where truth and creation lives.

As for most of the above you and Tom have shared, agree, agree, agree.

And a Merry Christmas to you both.

With love, Star

shalie21

13:15 26/12/2001 

Merry Christmas to you too. And a Happy New Year :-)

TOM

01:27 01/01/2002 

Haven't been here in a few days. It is new Year's Eve morning. Sometimes I get too involved in debate. I love it, it is what I do. I hope that tonight everything goes well. I am a little concerned as many should be. This would be the ultimate time for some terroristic revenge. I pray for the best and hope that both of you fellow fine female humans bode well in the next year. HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!

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